Memory Alpha talk:Manual of Style
Picture Formating Is there a seperate page for imaging formatting? I'll just post it here for now. NAyway, I have noiced that in many artilces, I have noticed they are clumped into a column without care to which part of the article they belong to. Like on the Sickbay page in the Differences amongst starship classes section, the pictures are formatted on one top of each other, instead of pictures in their appropiate section of text. I think it would be more helpful to change it. Peb1991 16:44, 20 Oct 2005 (UTC) Narrative tense I notice that tense varies from past '' (when people watched it), '' the present tense '' (the narrative present tense), '' and the future tense '' (when the show is set). '' I propose that we switch to the narrative present tense ' -- let us split the difference and be consistent. ' -- Ŭalabio 06:38, 2005 Jan 27 (CET) Suggested change: Indent "alternate timeline" information I suggest that we break from the Star Trek Encyclopedia style, which italicizes both "alternate timeline" and "meta-Trek POV" material to divide it from the "in Star Trek POV" used by unitalicized text. Instead, we should recommend users indent the alternate timeline or universe paragraphs, but not italicize. This has been discussed at Memory Alpha:Ten Forward. I find that, in the format of a wiki, using the style for two separate things distracts from being able to discern background info from the in-universe perspective i'd like to see maintained on alternate timeline. At Tom Paris, User:Q instituted this style (i assume he'd support making this a policy since he made the edit), I find i support it as well. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 15:17, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT) Support Please simply list your name (* ~~~) below if you want to make this a specified policy. * Captain Mike K. Barteltalk * User:Q (assumed) Disagree *'Oppose''' - looks very ugly, and far too distracting from the rest of the text. Strongly support status quo - italics for alternate timelines, italics and indentation for background material. It looks a hell of a lot better, and neater. -- Michael Warren | ''Talk'' 18:54, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT) *'Disagree' - to me, it doesn't seem as if italics or any sort of special flag is needed for alternate timeline info; just putting "In an alternate timeline" or something similar should be sufficient (and with bigger articles, an entire "Alternate timelines" heading). -- SmokeDetector47 // ''talk'' 19:35, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT) *'Oppose' - I agree with Dark Horizon. I think the way it is now is easily understandable, and does make it look alot more 'cleaned up'. Keep italics for Alt. Time lines! --AJHalliwell 01:02, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) *'Oppose' - Discussion below. -- Cid Highwind 09:57, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) Discussion We have a ten months old discussion about exactly this topic here. Let's not forget the things said there. The comment I made on that page still stands: :Regarding alternate universe info, I think I&I should depend on some specifics of the alternate timeline - if the information is unknown to inhabitants of the original universe, it should be indented/italicized; if the information is known, this should not be done. :Take T'Pol as an example: The Twilight timeline basically didn't happen - info about it should be i&i'd. The events of E² are known to the crew, so info about that should just be a normal part of the article. This makes sense if we think of MA as an encyclopedia written by an in-universe person in Trek's future. To reiterate, the I&I-format, in my opinion, is nothing that is used especially for alternate timeline info. It is a format to distinguish between known and unknown information (from the POV of a person in the Trek-universe). -- Cid Highwind 09:57, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) Rule clarification:Quoting texts containing errors We have a small section about quotations here, but it doesn't really say anything about the way errors in original texts should be handled. Recently, we had the case of a cover text using U.S.S. Enterprise instead of the correct USS Enterprise. Possibilities are: *Correct errors in quotations *Leave quotations as accurate as possible (don't correct errors) I prefer the second option - text passages marked as quotations should be kept in their "original" state. What do you think? -- Cid Highwind 11:00, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) :Well, we obviously have a well established format, and as long as we are keeping true to the 'words' of something we quote, the formatting should stick to what is already widely accepted here and not to what some 'Joe Blow' intern typed on the paper instered in the back of my DVD case. Besides, when we start adding too many footnotes and corrections to things, it makes for a messy and, quite frankly, ugly article, especially about something so insignificant. Regardless, it's certainly not worth squabbling over. --Gvsualan 11:21, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) This is, in my opinion, not really a question of using/not using an "established format", but more a question of "accuracy". We can't call something a quotation if it is not - try altering quotes (without marking these changes) in any type of scientific context... Also, it would be best if you dropped the judgement about significance and the "Joe Blow"-type comments. The discussion is already loaded as it is. -- Cid Highwind 11:43, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::I prefer to leave the phrases as they would appear if and when they are linked to a MA article title -- for example, the sign in TNG:"The Outrageous Okona" reads: "Charnock's COMEDY Cabaret" -- have i made an error by transcribing the actual title of the MA article as "Charnock's Comedy Cabaret" ? No -- i wrote exactly what it said, but styled it according to our policy -- we shouldn't add irregular stylings to text in our articles unless we are prepared to link to an article U.S.S. Enterprise -- otherwise we are preserving a bad style which will cost us the trouble of creating a piped link ((USS Enterprise|U.S.S. Enterprise)) -- something i find to be wasteful and troublesome, especially considering that we ignore such occurrences in actual canon sources, which is supposed to be our focus here, not the minutiae of merchandising box-art. For an example of canon use, the hull of the main ship in TOS reads U.S.S. ENTERPRISE, but our article is USS Enterprise - why? because "USS Shipname" fits wiki code better as a simpler variation, and its also how ships are referred to in readouts in episodes and films. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 17:29, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) Episode title formatting One thing I have been unable to find in the Manual of Style or elsewhere is a guideline on how names of episodes should be formatted when they're referenced in articles. Two of the most common formats I have run across are: *TNG: "The Neutral Zone" *''DS9: "The Adversary" Other variations include not using quote marks around the episode title. Thoughts on a standard? --Spot 22:28, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC) :(TNG: "The Neutral Zone")'' within articles because they are Meta-Trek there, below References -> :* TNG: "The Neutral Zone" :--84.131.29.137 22:35, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::That topic is covered in Memory Alpha:Cite your sources -- Kobi - [[ :Kobi|( )]] 07:03, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC) Aha - that's where it's hiding! Thanks. --Spot 17:19, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC) List reordering I've noticed that some users have been reformatting lists from this style: *TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint" *DS9: "Emissary" *TNG: "All Good Things..." to a style like this: *TNG **"Encounter at Farpoint" **"All Good Things..." *DS9 **"Emissary" Was there ever a vote or a consensus to move over to this new style that I may have missed? I don't find anything particularly wrong with the new style... my only major issue is that episodes become segregated by series rather than chronological order, which is especially bad for things which appeared over multiple series and movies. -- SmokeDetector47 // ''talk'' 20:06, 21 May 2005 (UTC) :I think an effort should be made to find lists that are chronologically ordered and maintain the older style. :I like the newer style for removing excessive occurrences of "TNG" and such in longer multi-series lists. I didn't think I'd need a vote to remove extra links -- it is MA policy to remove excess links like the repeated ENTs and VOYs in these lists. Although other users discussed this with me on talk pages, i think the consensus comes as that, when this style is added to an article, it is usually maintained there as the simplest possible ordering of the information. I decided to Be bold and add some lists like these to see how they would work. :You are absolutely right, however, that chronologically ordered lists like the example above should be maintained in the older style to remain as informative as possible. I think it might be worth adding a disclaimer to the Memory Alpha:Manual of Style cautioning users not to disturb the order of the list when multiple series' episodes are interspersed chronologically, and to only institute a simpler style if the list is sorted by series. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 20:45, 21 May 2005 (UTC) ::So should we keep it like the first style if chronological order is desired, or do something like this: ::*TNG ::**"Encounter at Farpoint" ::**"The Best of Both Worlds" ::**"The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" ::*DS9 ::**"Emissary" ::**"Battle Lines" ::*TNG ::**"The Pegasus" ::**"All Good Things..." ::I'd be content with this format, in order to both preserve the chronological order and be consistent with the other list styles. -- SmokeDetector47 // ''talk'' Okay here is a good question, I think. What do you mean by chronologically? The episode/movie production chronology or the in-Trek universe chronology. I was attempting to reorder the Excelsior class appearances, and in doing so, there was the difficulty of deciding in the appearance of several ships, if whether to organize them by their episodic appearances or their Trek-history appearances. This is especially difficult in cases where ships are shown "out of time", like having the Excelsior and Enterprise-B appearances falling in the middle of TNG/DS9 and VOY's timeline. Below are the two examples of what I mean (sorry it's so long). :Production Chronology: *Star Trek Movies: **''Star Trek III: The Search for Spock'' ** *TNG: ** "Encounter at Farpoint" ** "Where No One Has Gone Before" ** "The Child" *Star Trek Movies: **''Star Trek V: The Final Frontier'' *TNG: ** "Tin Man" ** "The Offspring" ** "The Best of Both Worlds" ** "The Drumhead" * Star Trek Movies: **''Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country *TNG: ** "Ethics" ** "Chain of Command, Part I" ** "Chain of Command, Part II" *DS9: ** "Emissary" *TNG: ** "Preemptive Strike" *Star Trek Movies: ** Star Trek Generations *DS9: ** "The Way of the Warrior" ** "By Inferno's Light" *VOY: ** "Flashback" *DS9: ** "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" *VOY: ** "Relativity" ::OR :Trek Universe Chronology: *Star Trek Movies: **''Star Trek III: The Search for Spock'' ** **''Star Trek V: The Final Frontier'' **''Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country'' *VOY: ** "Flashback" *Star Trek Movies: **''Star Trek Generations'' *TNG: ** "Encounter at Farpoint" ** "Where No One Has Gone Before" ** "The Child" ** "Tin Man" ** "The Offspring" ** "The Best of Both Worlds" *DS9: ** "Emissary" *TNG: ** "The Drumhead" ** "Ethics" ** "Chain of Command, Part I" ** "Chain of Command, Part II" *TNG: ** "Preemptive Strike" *VOY: ** "Relativity" *DS9: ** "The Way of the Warrior" Although I realize the "Emissary", "Flashback", and "Relativity" appearances are debatable, would it just be best to leave all of the TOS Movie appearances together? --Gvsualan 13:29, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC) : I apologize for not responding to this sooner; I seem to have missed this addition. I agree, the motion pictures, at least the TOS ones, should be kept together for simplicity's sake; none of the movies correlate with the episodes that well anyway. I was more concerned with the TNG/DS9/VOY era episodes; and even though some of them featured flashbacks or trips to earlier years, the main bulk of the episode was still primarily set within its respective season and air order. So "Emissary" would belong with DS9 season 1, "Flashback" around VOY season 3, and "Relativity" around VOY season 5. Of course there are exceptions like "Living Witness" and "These Are the Voyages," but I don't think there are enough to cause a huge problem. -- SmokeDetector47 // ''talk'' 04:36, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) Memorable quotes Would it be significant to add a section on "memorable quotes" formatting for the articles on episodes? There are a few different ways that are currently used (see Broken Link, Ties of Blood and Water and Ferengi Love Songs for examples). Rcog 22:22, 9 Sep 2005 (UTC) There's even more variation than that. It should be set up like this Janeway: Dont quote me on that Chakotay: What? Janeway: Whatever I said in this quote : I personally think quotes should be set up as definition lists if more than one person was involved. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 22:31, 9 Sep 2005 (UTC) ---- ;Janeway : Dont quote me on that ;Chakotay : What? ;Janeway : Whatever I said in this quote I like the formatting on most featured articles, such as Court Martial or United. Seems cleaner to me then some others, I particularly don't like the Ferengi Love Songs version. - AJHalliwell 03:10, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC) ---- "Don't quote me on that." "What?" "Whatever I said in this quote. : - Captain Janeway, Chakotay ---- I prefer this: Janeway: "Don't quote me on that." Chakotay: "What?" Janeway: "Whatever I said in this quote." --Memory 21:47, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC) *This is probably one of those stylistic things that's more personal preference than anything. I do it the way AJ mentioned, but only because I saw Court Martial as the Article of the Week and modeled my own pages after it. The way Memory and Mike (they're similar enough) suggest would probably be necessary though if you had more than two people in a quote. --Schrei 06:15, 13 Sep 2005 (UTC) :*All of the episodes now follow the same format, the same one that's in the episodic template: "Don't quote me on that." "What?" "Whatever I said in this quote. : - Captain Janeway and Chakotay :*With two blank lines between quotes for spacing. In short, the episodes are (at the least) consistent now. If nothing else. -- Sulfur 18:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC) Miss, Mrs., and Mr. I'd like to suggest a guideline about avoiding titles such as Miss, Mrs, and Mr. I've seen in numerous articles that characters and performers are referred to with titles, such as "Rosalind Chao played Mrs. Keiko O'Brien in DS9" and "Whoopi Goldberg played Guinan on TNG. Ms. Goldberg was born on...", which nearly all writing guidelines suggest avoiding.--This user is not Jesus 10:10, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC) :I agree with avoiding titles in the above examples, but there may be times when the term will be unavoidable because is was what the character was called on Trek, for example, Mr. Spock and Mr. Homn. --From Andoria with Love 11:16, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC) ::For style questions that are not specifically related to Memory Alpha or the wiki format (like this one), is there perhaps some good online "writing guideline" that we could reference? We could then only note "local variations" from that guideline instead... -- Cid Highwind 12:48, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC) "Alternate timelines" section I think the title "Alternate timelines" (seen in quite a few character pages) should be changed to something like "Alternate Realities". Information could then be taken from sequences that are not strictly alternate timelines, such as Barash's illusion of the Enterprise-D crew that Riker witnessed in TNG: "Future Imperfect". I'd still appreciate other users' opinion on that before making changes. --Defiant | ''Talk'' 14:26, 18 Nov 2005 (UTC) :i'd support this. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk Hyphens 2 or 3 years ago -- I read in a wiki guide that was linked from one of our policy pages that we try and avoid hyphens in article titles (and therefore article links) whenever possible, to avoid delimiting searches and other wiki-tech related issues. Its been a while and we've moved servers, so i can't find any policy pages or talk relating to it, but I'm sure that's what i read. This is why we do not hyphenate the title 22nd century or Constitution class. I ask because there is a new user who needs it explained. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk :German MA moved all articles missing the hyphen to the correct German spelling with it a long time ago (e.g. "Constitution Klasse" to "Constitution-Klasse", the redirect remained). Up to now I thought the "not-hyphened" writing is correct in AE. Is it not? --Memory 23:06, 26 Dec 2005 (UTC) :: This is still something that needs to be clarified. Even 3 months later, a user is hyphenating nearly every starship and starship class page. --Alan del Beccio 06:19, 10 March 2006 (UTC) :::For what it's worth, startrek.com uses hyphenated spelling in its library section, while Wikipedia (for example Wikipedia:List of naval ship classes in service) seems to use non-hyphenated spelling throughout. I personally prefer the latter style (no hyphens), but I don't know if there are any rules that would make the first one "more correct". -- Cid Highwind 11:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC) ::::I would prefer to keep the Wikipedia method just to keep things consistent with them and what we've done for the past three years. I am personally going to continue to remove hyphens in class names whenever I come across them, unless we decide to make a formal vote on moving the class names to hyphenated titles. -- SmokeDetector47( TALK ) 22:18, 19 March 2006 (UTC) :::Seeing that hyphens are still added to starship classes while apparently, there's consensus here to use the spelling without hyphens - does anyone want to add anything else to this discussion? Otherwise this should be added to the MoS soon... -- Cid Highwind 17:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC) Italicization Should the class names be italicized? I notice that in this discussion they're not, but in may places in the wiki I see that they are. — THOR ''=/\='' 18:04, 28 March 2006 (UTC) :I think it was omitted here just for simplicity's sake. The name before class should be italicized, i.e. ''Galaxy'' class. -- SmokeDetector47( TALK ) 03:48, 31 March 2006 (UTC) Paragraphs and formatting I'd like to propose a new section of the Manual, referring to basic paragraph construction and formatting of articles. I've noticed a tendency towards HUGE "run on" paragraphs. Some of them numbering dozens of lines and 5+ column inches without a break. This makes the articles hard to read, because everything seems to just flow in together. It also makes it hard to quickly skim articles for data points. A good paragraph (grammatically speaking) is 2-5 sentences in length on average. It covers ONE thought or idea/piece of information. Any time there is a change in the thought/idea/piece of information, there should be a paragraph change as well. As for formatting paragraphs, I've found that adding an empty line between paragraphs looks better in the articles than the traditional "paragraph indent" on the first line. It makes for a more definite "break point" visually, and allows the reader to more easily see that they are reading a NEW paragraph at that point. :As an example of what I'm talking about, here's every thing I just typed done as one big block (the way many articles tend to be): :I'd like to propose a new section of the Manual, referring to basic paragraph construction and formatting of articles. I've noticed a tendency towards HUGE "run on" paragraphs. Some of them numbering dozens of lines and 5+ column inches without a break. This makes the articles hard to read, because everything seems to just flow in together. It also makes it hard to quickly skim articles for data points. A good paragraph (grammatically speaking) is 2-5 sentences in length on average. It covers ONE thought or idea/piece of information. Any time there is a change in the thought/idea/piece of information, there should be a paragraph change as well. As for formatting paragraphs, I've found that adding an empty line between paragraphs looks better in the articles than the traditional "paragraph indent" on the first line. It makes for a more definite "break point" visually, and allows the reader to more easily see that they are reading a NEW paragraph at that point. Compare the two formats...Agree? Disagree?Capt Christopher Donovan 09:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC) :I think it's a good idea - shorter paragraphs, with line breaks, without indentation. I did a quick check, but couldn't find anything related on one of the MoS pages, do you want to add a section about it? I think it should be placed between "Headlines and sections" and "List style"... -- Cid Highwind 09:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC) Punctuation marks and quotes I added a section about placing punctuation marks outside of quotes unless they a part of the quotation. I know this may seem obvious, but every English teacher I've ever had has taught me that periods and commas are always inside quotes. This also seems to be the case in any piece of literature I can find (besides wikis). Since I've noticed that MA consistently follows the first rule, I thought it would make a valuable addition. --Commodore Sixty-Four(talk) 10:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC) :No. That's wrong. Punctuation should come inside of the quote, unless the quote marks are around a title (ie, episode, comic, etc). -- Sulfur 11:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC) Citation for "AD" It's been said that "AD" is mentioned so it's the norm but no one seems to offer any canon evidence for that. Just because "AD" was mentioned doesn;t mean it applies across the board. (It's logically invalid to generalize from a specific. "Some humans are mobsters" doesn't mean "All humans are mobsters." "One date used Christian notation" doesn't mean "All dates use Christian notation.") In needs to seen in context. The only reference I recall has to do with a holoprogram and in that context actually implies that "AD" is not the norm. "BC" is less an issue. Christ, regardless of your beliefs, was a historical figure of some importance. But "Anno Domini" means "in the year of The Lord" and has a much greater religious significance. Whether intended or not, "AD" IS a slight to non-Christians. And it's not even necessary. If you say "19th Century" we all know what you're talking about. – StarFire209 18:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC) :Was CE ever used in Trek canon? No. Was AD used in canon? At least once. Problem solved, have a nice day. --OuroborosCobra talk 18:25, 1 September 2007 (UTC) ::Since you seem to be insistent on continuing this conversation on every bloody page here, I refer you to Talk:Early history. Keep the conversation in one place. One. One. ::As an aside to shut everyone up: :::Character first appeared in pulp magazine, "Amazing Detective Stories," copyright 1934, A.D. ::That's from , said by the computer outside the holodeck. When loading the initial story. 'Nuff said. -- Sulfur 18:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)